By Jeffrey Lin, July 5, 2024
Mr. Ding recounts his experiences as a young student during the Cultural Revolution, vividly describing his early encounters with the Red Guard Movement, the challenges of living through armed conflict, and the personal growth he gained during the Down to the Countryside Movement. He reflects on his journey from participating in political fervor to navigating life as a rusticated youth in rural China.
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J.L.: Greetings, I am Jeffrey Lin, interviewing Mr. Ding in the One Haifu Residential Complex in Bao’an District, Shenzhen. The current time is 22:04, July 5. So before we begin, Mr. Ding, do you have any questions or concerns about this interview?
Ding: No.
J.L.: Great. So I wonder how did you perceive the Red Guard Movement of 1966-1968, prior to your rustication?[1]
Ding: So for this Red Guard Movement, or Cultural Revolution in General, I feel like I did not hold much judgment or discern towards political matters as I was young, only a Middle Schooler. As for my perceptions of the Cultural Revolution, they were established later through reading books, you know, like the political views, those came after. For us, we did not understand what was going on; I simply followed the trend or fad, because in the Red Guard Movement Big-Character Posters were written, many classmates of mine organized a Red Guard Organization. We created such a squadron or team to also write Big-Character Newspapers. Because we also had wax paper at the time, we printed our Big-Character Newspapers and propaganda pamphlets on wax paper. We had six to seven constituents, and we were positively-oriented and optimistic people.
But things took a turn in the later stages.
In the beginning, It was just Red Guards. Then, factions appeared: one oppositional, one conservative. In Chongqing, the 815 faction was conservative, and the other was oppositional to its very core. In the beginning of the Cultural Revolution, Big-Character Newspaperswere directed against certain cadres in the government. In the first one or two months, I am not exactly sure, we went to go “examine” the residence of the local party secretary. Most of us went, but nothing happened after the examinations [as the secretary was not found guilty]. [After that], it divided into two factions…I became part of the 815 faction. So we mainly just wrote Big-Character Newspapers, made pamphlets, distributed pamphlets, and such. But after the intensification of the factional conflicts, [there] began to be armed conflicts. I abstained from [Red Guard] activities since then. My classmates and I started hanging out at home. What will we play? Small gadget games.
In terms of science and technology, I liked to develop photos. So we would go out to by photograph sheets, about half the size of what is now an A4 [sheet of] paper. One booklet of such sheets consisted of 10 pieces. These we bought, and in addition to the photograph sheet booklets we also had at home, we made our own dark room to develop photos. Later, we started installing radios with minerals, listening to radio shows. We would go out to the market to purchase radios and transistors to build. We [also] bought small speakers. These were small things we could build considering [we] had little money.
We could not buy the plastic shells, so we made our own wooden box to contain the [radio networks] on the circuit board. So we did not participate in the armed struggle. We did not participate in the later stages of the Red Guard Movement. Until classes resumed in 1968. We did not have classes for long until Chairman Mao gave the “Up the Mountains and Down to the Countryside” call. We first have voluntary enlistment, in which I participated. I held the attitude of going to train myself in the great wide world of the countryside, since we had no school [anyways]. For our school,
00:05:15
the first batch of students left on January 4, after the Yuandan Holiday.[2] I did not follow my school at the time, because who did I follow? Because my old hometown was a rural village; my dad came from a rural village, I would just rusticate to our old rural home! This way I can tend to my older relatives as well. And this was a better arrangement because for one person to go that far to the countryside, there were many inconveniences. The Cultural Revolution was like this. Most followed the trend, and most people did not understand what that meant. Follow the fad. How would we understand the full meaning behind all the movements as Middle Schoolers. We just followed the fad. But if you fought in armed conflict, that was bad. We (my friends and I) don’t fight. We never joined the Red Guards after quitting. But you can find all sorts of narratives later, on the newspapers. Newspapers [documented] positive reports, as well as negative rhetoric.
But the roads we have walked, from our experience nowadays, [we can judge that] the Cultiral Revolution conducted effective criticism and dealt blows towards those corrupt organizations [in the government] and capitalist blasphemers. So from this perspective, it was correct, but later the situation was not properly controlled, devolving into armed violence. In the end, it [came down to] guns, cannons, and plane shooting. The arms were all out, especially in Chongqing. There were military ships as well, which were used. Because Chongqing [had] the Wangjiang Mechanics factory along the Yangtze River, [which] was a military factory producing weapons, they took ship barges and reconfigured them into military ships. And because the Wanjiang Mechanics Factory also made artillery, they put cannons on the barges, welding them to the ships with steel plates as their cover. And they used cotton cloth and sand bags inside as blocking material.
Because Wangjiang was downstream on the Yangtze River from Chongqing, the ships were driven upstream. To do what? Deliver resources. The Wangjiang factory delivered resources to the faction it supported, but because both shores were defenses of oppositional parties, they fought and the cannons would fire onto the rocks and houses [on the shores]. They came and penetrated the rocks, blistering with sparks of fire, and, those that launched into the water sent plummets of water [into the sky]. And I was in my own home, [which] was adjacent to the river. So we would see this fighting from home, and so later when violence was resorted to, we abstained from participating in this [episode of violence]. So those are my views on the Cultural Revolution.
J.L.: So during this time of armed fighting, did you hear this type of explosions made by artillery?
Ding: I experienced it firsthand, becahse our home was adjacent to a factory. But this factory was one occupied by the 815 faction, and in the factory the 815 faction made a base. But one night, sometime in April or May, a May night actually, the opposition faction attacked the 815 [faction] from the mountains. My home is also next to a road, and the houses on [my] side were level with the road. The opposition was on the road attacking the factory below on the other side. Those in the factory, well the bullets often passed by and through our house and rooms. When we hear a loud sound of wind, we know that the bullets come. Even the sound of gunshots were bearable at least for us, because our home was two floors. Those living on the second floor simply came down to the first floor, and we had a thick mud wall, about a meter thick! So our walls were inpenetrable to the bullets.
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But some nights were scary. We had to hide, in our home. And we use cotton blankets to cover up the windows, but they can’t get through the cotton. So we would use cotton blankets to cover the window while we spend the night in fright, and the second morning we woke up, my father sent us to the countryside, away [from all this madness]. So why did I voluntarily rusticate and work in the countryside? It was safe; there were no factional fights there. I also learned to do agricultural work, which was [better] than my personal experiences of horror when a granade was thrown over our house, and gunfire responded in “Biu! Biu! Biu! [Nonstop]. As soon as the light of of the second day broke, and the crossfire had ceased, my father expediently signed us up and sent us back to our old rural home. We walked, took a boat, and crossed the [Yangtze] River to get there.
J.L.: So you mentioned how you were initially copying out Big-Character Newspapers. I wonder which slogans or titles you remembered most profoundly?
Ding: Well it is not so recent of an event. I remember that “Against the capitalist corrupters! Fight the capitalist blasphemers until they surrender!” You also had to record personal “atrocities” commiteed by Person XXX.[3] We wrote what we heard about.
J.L.: So you said the capitalist-corruption party was the one against the 815 faction?
Ding: No, the leaders, of all different units, governments, local departments, schools, factories, and such were all targets of the capitalist-corruption party. Both the [conservative] 815 and opposition factions target the capitalist-corruption party.
J.L.: Okay, and as I was conducting research on the Cultural Revolution in the Harvard-Yenching Library, I would often see discourse such as “defeat Deng Xiaoping” and “eradicate Liu Shaoqi” both copied on newspapers and in books. Stuff like “100 Instances of Anti-Mao Zedong Discourse of Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi” booklets were compiled in mass quantities. Did you see these booklets in Chongqing?
Ding: I am not so sure. Because I was young, I had not developed an understanding for these kinds of things. But one main point of anti-Liu Shaoqi and anti-Deng Xiaoping discourse was baochandaohu,[4] which was capitalist. The Communist Party adhered to socialism, where everything belongs to the collective: communized! So the Cultural Revolution is against baochandaohu.
J.L.: Okay, so in my understanding, the way through which you rusticated was by Toukao. So can you tell me what the living conditions were like in your rural home, where you rusticated through toukao?
Ding: Yes, [though] I lived in my home, and I returned to my grandfather’s side, but all zhiqing were entitled settlement subsidies. They (the government) gave my grandfather the subsidies. I was way better off than the chadui youth, who had to live in houses built by the production team.[5] I did not have many of the concerns of residential life in the far countryside. I did not even have to cook because I was with my grandfather and uncle, the latter of whom was unmarried. Whatever they cooked, I ate. I also did not laundry as my grandmother did it. For most zhiqing, they would have to complete that task, because they lived in their own room built specifically for them. Making food, fetching water, lighting fires [and such] were all the work of one’s own, which made their lives much more laborious then mine. Especially for a Middle Schooler in their teens, many have not done these things even in the city, at home. So [they] were not acquanited [with this livestyle] in the countryside in the first days. But in the society [JL1] back then, the peasants were nice and helpful. They (the peasants) knew that [the zhiqing] did not know how to do many things and thus helped out.
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Sometimes the other zhiqing could not figure out their matches and how to light a fire, so [peasants would] give them a part of their stash or fire. Another case was—we had supplied food provisions in the first year [of rustication], provided by the government. You can go onto the streets to buy [a maximum of] 27 jin[6] of grain. But you did not have vegetables if you could not plant them. So the kindhearted peasants would provide [the zhiqing] some vegetables. It was a lot of difficulty for teens. Those like me were lucky because at [our rural] home we did not have to worry about these issues.
J.L.: So when you first went to the countryside, what kind of agricultural work had you performed?
Ding: Oh I performed all the agricultural work that was asked of me. All of it, except for plowing the fields. You know how plowing the field works? A cow would pull a plough, [the direction of] which was controlled by the human. The cow walked in front, and the men had to handle the plough to let the soil turn itself in the water of the fields. This was plowing the fields, which required great strength. I have played around with plowing before, but when it came to actual work [with ploughs], I could not do it [for long]. Every day you’d follow along the same track. The plough was heavy. The cow had the strength but not you. So if you did not handle the plough properly, you’d be pulled along with the plouhgh without adequately turning the fields, which would be bad for transplanting rice seedlings. But all the other ones like carrying loads, Cutting wheat, planting rice, cutting rice, threshing rice, all these tasks I have done. Except for plowing the fields, I could do everything well.
J.L.: So were there other zhiqing with you in the village you rusticated to? Or was it just you and your family?
Ding: Yes there were [zhiqing]. In our production team there were two who, including me, arrived through toukao: me and another girl. But because each production team was divided into two groups, and she was on group two while I was in group one, so we were not together when we labored in the fields. We did agricultural work staying in our own groups. Because groups were divided to work on separate fields.[7] There were also zhiqing who arrived through chadui, which means allocated directly based off of location of school to the countryside, directly to the production team, of which we had two. One was allocated to group one. The other, group two. They had almost never met [since], because they did not do agricultural work together. But because they were kids, they wanted to be with classmates and friends to have a mate. They decided to reunite as friends since, as they got tired of doing agricultural labor, and stopped focusing on theur work.
So they would go onto shady stuff life theft around the countryside. Once they went to steal someone’s chicken, and in return were chased by the peasant on the muddy ridges of the fields. Being unused to long-distance running, the zhiqing could not outpace the chasing peasants. They fell on the side of the rice field, which contained water perenially due to the nature of the fields in Sichuan. The peasant ran after, through his plow into the field, which scratched the back of the zhiqing, making two small dents in his skin. Later, after medical care, the zhiqing never returned to the production team. So he and his girlfriend, who did not belong to our production team but was in the commune—she was in another dadui—he frequently went over to the nearby dadui. He never did work here since. Both of the chadui rusticaterd youths did not do work im the village. I left after two years, so the youth [who was injured] actually left later than me, by one year. I never saw him in the last year of my time there, and I do not know what had happened to him.
J.L.: So for example, like the youth who ditched work for his girlfriend, how did he earn work points?
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Ding: Well, since he did not attend work, he had no work points.
J.L.: So no work points.
Ding: Yes he had no work points. With regard to the stuff he eats, well he has to be allocated food. At the end of years he would tally up his [remaining] points. His work points were insufficient, so he had to use his own money to make up for the shortage of work points in order to trade for food. Sometimes perishable items like corn and tams were not allocated to him at all. What use would they be of to him anyways? So we would not give him these perishable items, only rice. He [should] have enough work points to purchase rice [either way]. If when he did the tally, he did not have enough points, he had to fill up the shortage with his own money.
The first year, well the first year he did not have to use his own money. The government provisioned all the food. But starting in the second year he was supposed to grow and cook his own food.
J.L.: I know that you lived in Chongqing, and your rural home was also located there? I wonder what is the specific name of the village to which you rusticated?
Ding: I rusticated to what is now considered the limits of Chongqing city, in the Jiangbei (denoting North of the River) county. When we were supposed to return to our old rural homes, we returned to Jiangbei. So right, we were middle schoolers of the city of Chongqing, who rusticated to Jiangbei county. [which then was] administered by the Sichuan province.
J.L.: I have read an article called “Urban Youth on the Margins” also describing problems rusticated youths specifically in the Sichuan and Chongqing regions contended with. It included a narration of how there was a 100 yuan subsidy for every zhiqing in terms of housing, but as that was deemed insufficient to construct adequate housing, another 100 yuan per zhiqing was appended in 1971. But the money distribution and allocation scheme was poorly managed, which was also the situation with respect to food and grain allocation. So many people there experienced food shortages and famines. I wonder if you have cntended with similar problems? If so, which ones specifically?
Ding: Well, since I only stayed for two years, and I believe that more problems were revealed later on. Well actually after a year some problems started emerging. So one was the grain, which was provided by the government in the first year but earned through one’s own work [starting] the second year. If one did not have enough work points the second year, they would have to purchase grain and food. If they had insufficient money, then they would have no food to eat, and thus starve, [living off of] other villagers. There were warehouses where the rice crops were stored. And you would have to use your allocated amount or trade with money. And if you did not have enough work points and did not receive sufficient allocations, you are off on your own depending on if you have money.
J.L.: So have you seen other zhiqing make acts of resistence towards these crises? Or were everybody very much obedient?
Ding: Well in the first phase (first two-three years), when I was there, these phonomena were few. But in the later stages, they became prevalent for sure. I was there for two years because, well, I rusticated early, as one of the first to [sign up] and go, and many of us who participated so eagerly were hired for work afterwards. And then I left, so the circustances in the later years, you know, the Down to the Countryside happened mostly in the ten years from 1968 until 1978, there were more problems. Why were there problems later? Well I left in 1970, 1971, and I noticed that more were going [to the countryside] even then. Those who rusticated late had fewer returns [per capita] every year, and those who did not get the opportunity to return to the city were anxious and jealous of those who did.
J.L.: Right.
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Ding: So at these times, conflicts would surface. Where? Well problems were more accentuated usually in the army corps.[8] But [for] those of us who came through chadui, it was harder to organize movements because we were sparsed out, and there would not be such a group or collective to protest against such a movement. But I only learned of [what you talked about] in Yunnan later, because [by then] I was not a zhiqing, but rather, I studied in school, where I was sent after spending a year working for the 44th [Research] Institute [for Semiconductor Development]. So during the time I was in school, I cannot see nor learn about these phonemena. But I learned about these events later because my sister was in Yunnan, under an army corps. They said, in the later stages, after a while in the countryside, there were many latent conflicts between the newcomers and senior zhiqing brewing in the camps, especially as the [amount of] people grew. The more senior ones were mostly in the ranks of zhiqing leaders or even cadres[JL2] , while the newcomers had to do actual, solid work. Sometimes the senior zhiqing would treat the newcomers unfairly, that was a source of problems. Also, in chadui rustication, there were more people who were able to return [to the cities], but they had to be hired. One was hired back to his father’s factory, because it was allowed for factory owners or leaders to directly hire their sons and daughters. There was this policy, but most units (meaning companies) were not hiring, so most zhiqing could not return. This created conflicts because of the unequal treatment. Those in the army corps were not eligible to be hired back to the cities [during the Down to the Countryside Movement], because the army corps was considered a collective, with wages for all its members, who would attend work everyday like regular workers in the workforce. Nobody hired [from the army corps]. But seeing that many chadui zhiqing returned to the cities, which was a [desirable] thing, those who could not return felt jealous. Those at the army corps were disadvantaged in comparison.
At the same time, combined with insufficient funds for residential life, combined with the [incitement of] personal conflicts, movements and unrest erupted. Think about it: when conditions were harsh, most could not persist and wanted to return to the cities. In 1978, I think Deng Xiaoping published a document. This document notified that all zhiqing were to return to their cities. But implementation was slow, as a part was able to depart the cities after the executive order, and another had to stay behind.[9] This of course provoked conflict as many felt unsatisfied and disadvantaged.
J.L.: Ok, so I would also like to know what the process by which you were selected to go attend Tsinghua University in 1971 was like.
Ding: Ok sure. I was hired from my village to a unit, under the jurisdiction of the province (Sichuan)’s army corps number 127. I was hired to a Research Institute (as mentioned before, Institute number 44) under the Science and Technology Commission, which fell under the jurisdiction of the military unit. I had a pretty special job in the research institute. They knew that I had some experience with radio, so they put me in the most complex section: in the instruments room. Initially, I was allocated [an instructor who was] a researcher who used to be a soldier. The instructor who used to be a soldier was unable to do the work or teach me, so they rearranged to have a person who attended a technical secondary school to be my instructor. This instructor was also unable to guide me, as I was even better than him in many [technical] aspects. Our director saw that this was problematic, so he switched my instructor for another technical secondary school graduate. As our research institute produced a lot of good research work, and the new instructor was competent, I stayed on the job for around a year. Around that time, an opportunity arose in the province where many workers, peasants and soldiers were selected to go to university.
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Our research institute worked in national defense, which necessitated more talented individuals. So all of [the hirers] would come to our research institute, and I was the first of my unit of zhiqing at the research institute to go to university. The research institute always got recommendation quotas for Tsinghua. And when the admissions officers came to our research institute, I was [one] of the first to be recommended. There were two recommendations provided to me by the research institute. One was the Northeast (China) Medical University, the other was Tsinghua University. I selected the latter, and then the admissions officers came to our research institute to assess me. He came up with two problems for me to do. I did them [correctly], and [Tsinghua University] then authorized the recommendation of the research institute, recognized my competence, and off I went to Tsinghua University. Because I entered the research institute in 1971, February of 1971 specifically, and I went to Tsinghua University starting in May 1972, I have spent an aggregate of 1 year and more (3 months) at the research institute. So yeah, I went by recommendation.
J.L.: I wonder what were the specific problems on which they assessed you for the interview, if you remember, of course?
Ding: They were systems of equations with two variables.
J.L.: Great. So after attending Tsinghua University, what industry did you work in?
Ding: The Technology sector.
J.L.: Great. So what are your perceptions on the zhiqing’s contributions to Chinese society and development after 1980?
Ding: I think the zhiqing, well, even though they underwent the hardship and training of the rustication movement, they mostly remained loyal to the [Communist] Party and country. We still held a passion for our country. In work, the zhiqing worked exceptionally hard, more than those who have not rusticated. This is because they suffered hardship and underwent challenges in the countryside. They know the pain and suffering of the regular peasants. So when they worked in the cities, they appreciated their job much more and thus worked harder. I think they [JL3] were a main propelling, driving workforce in the Reform and Opening Up of the 80s and 90s. A backbone of economic development, per se. When more leadership positions were created, many zhiqing filled into the role. The zhiqing had a positive effect on this country. Mainly, through this life in the countryside, the zhiqing, like my friends and I, would know that there is nothing to complain about. In fact, we are still recognizing and reverent of Mao Zedong and the country as a whole, despite his mistakes. But we thought that his Cultural Revolution changes made sense, such as overthrowing the regime dominated by capitalist corrupters. I say this from personal experience: I do not reserve any oppositional or indignant emotion against Mao Zedong anymore. [JL4]
J.L.: Okay, so can you please describe your most profound, meaningful memory in the countryside?
Ding: My most memorable experience was helping build a telecommunication and broadcast system for my production team, dadui, and commune. In the older days, communication between the commune [leadership] and dadui [leadership] was choppy, requiring people to run between [their headquaters]. Now, [after I helped built the system], you can call the commune leadership straight from the dadui. This greatly facilitated information transmission, as calling was deemed very convenient. The broadcasting system, on the other hand, was designed to inform the peasants of ongoing events, policies, etc. I am pleased that I helped set up this broadcasting system so that everyone can hear the news fresh.
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J.L.: So you have concluded previously that being a zhiqing in the countryside gives one many advantages in later work. I wonder what were the specific differences, or rather, advantages or weaknesses that the zhiqing exhibited which those who did not rusticate did not possess？
Ding: Well, there were many differences. When they [JL5] went to the countryside, the zhiqing had an abnormally strong quality for bearing hardships and standing hard work, especially in comparison to those who did not rusticate. The zhiqing had to contend with the harsh life and heavy agricultural labor asked of us in the countryside, and those who rusticated can attest to this. We also had to pay our public dues every year.[10] We had to walk thirty li to pay the dues, uphill and downhill.[11] Paying public dues required us to pick up large burdens of crops every year we made the payment. If you were to carry 100 jin[12] of crops across 30 li—well most people would not have this presevearance—most people would not be able to do it. So the zhiqing would say when working: “however bad this is, it could not have been as bad as it was then [during the Down to the Countryside Movement].” We had the philosophy of being able to bear through hardships and work hard ingrained in us, and we would apply it to our work, making us better and more efficient [at work].
J.L.: Right, the zhiqing were definitely more resilient in the face of hardship as a result of their rustication experiences. But can you please speak to me a little about the fun aspects of rural life, you know, like entertaining experiences that you found memorable?
Ding: Where we were, entertainment activities were few. There was entertainment, such as watching movies. Whereever there was a movie screening, [which usually occurs] in public suqares, many would light up torches and march two to five li (one to 2.5 kilometers) through the mountains after work to watch the movie. We did this with the local peasants. We also loved playing instruments. I learned to play the erhu. We also had another zhiqing in the dadui who liked to play the violin. I was close to him, so I often would go to his house. The dadui did not have that much zhiqing, so when I organize entertainment and culture activities, we would do some dance, even though there were few dancers. We did a dance called “the Great Knife Slices Towards the Japanese Invaders,”[13] which was a very powerful and revolutionary dance. There was not too much of this, perhaps a few times each [year]. Normally, there is much agricultural labour to perform, which we attended to, implying less chances for leisure and cultural activities.
J.L.: Alright, this was great! Thank you so much for providing your valuable input, opinions, views, and memories of your life as a zhiqing. This interview will be of great significance for both my research and that of other historians. And it is an invaluable experience for you too, as you have so eloquently narrated. So do you have any other questions or comments you would like to address or provide before we end [this interview]?
Ding: Well, I really appreciate this opportunity to illustrate and narrate my life as a zhiqing in the countryside to you younger generations as well. It is a great process of communication that takes you into our bygone lives and narrates our living conditions, our thought. Meaningful experiences must be passed between generations. This [interview] was great. I love that you do this!
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J.L.: Thank you very much for your comments and your time!
Ding: Thank you, I appreciate your work.
[1] Note: the opening question directly jumps into his thoughts on the Red Guards Movement as time for the interview was limited and rapport was established earlier at a dinner J.L. organized to better understand the lives of the narrators. So J.L. was familiar at large with the life courses, origins, and hometowns of the narrators.
[2] A Chinese way of saying the Gregorian Calendar’s New Year.
[3] A way of referring to some possible individual capitalist corrupter.
[4] https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/包干到户
[5] Chadui refers to a form of rustication where the youth is inserted (cha) into production teams (dui) in the countryside.
[6] 13.5 kilograms.
[7] Note that the speaker here had an unfinished thought ending as a sentence fragment.
[8] Ding was referring to the zhiqing enlisted at the army corps, who were often sent to cultivate the frontiers of China, where the conditions were harsh.
[9] Many had to stay behind because the cities were not able to receive so much youth at the same time, still due to employment, food, and economic pressures.
[10] During the Cultural Revolution, production teams had to give a certain portion of their produce to the government, which were called public dues at the time and was the equivalent of a tax on the produce.
[11] Thirty li is equivalent to 15 kilometers.
[12] 100 jin is equivalent to 50 kilograms.
[13] A dance evolving out of a context of World War II and the Japanese invasion of China.
[JL1]Nostalgia
[JL2]View of Cadres as lazy and inefficient? Unconventional or result of Cultural Revolution?
[JL3]Interesting…distancing self from the group despite discussing positive aspects.
[JL4]So such emotions existed before?
[JL5]Interesting…distancing self from the group despite discussing positive aspects.